I think that hinging actions only apply to the followthrough phase of the swing and that they do not apply to the takeaway swivel action and the release swivel action. The flat left wrist/hand's swivel movement during the release swivel phase of the golf swing (its approximately 90 degree rotation between the 3rd parallel and impact) is always approximately 90 degrees in a swinger, and it is a mirror image of the degree of left hand swivel action employed during the takeaway swivel action.
Why do you regard its being an off-center motion if the back of the flat left wrist/hand and clubface both rotate to square by impact? If the clubface becomes square to the ball-target line at the exact moment of ball-clubface separation, because the flat left wrist/hand rotates to square during the release swivel phase, why is that an off-center motion?
We have major differences in understanding this topic.
I have addressed many of your issues in my post to Dariusz.
I am only going to comment on this statement that you made in your last post.
""In the backswing, he took his clubshaft up the clubshaft plane (not sweetspot plane 2)"
OK, there is a plane shift from backswing to the downswing probably exaggerated by the parallax effect. Yodasluke is not a robot. Or is he? His swing is the most precised I have observe of any human. The backswing stage is of low energy and it does not matter much that you need to keep the sweetspot on plane during a backswing. But he sure keeps the sweetspot on plane during the downswing."
Homer's definition of "on-plane" refers to the end of the clusbhaft and not sweetspot. See last paragraph of 2-F. Normally the sweetspot can be used as being equivalent to the end of the clubshaft - because it is roughly equivalent to the end of the clubshaft when the clubhead width is <4", but it will not work if the clubhead width is 18" and the hosel-to-sweetspot distance is 9". If one directs PP#3 (which you believe senses the COG of the clubhead) towards the base of the sweetspot plane at the start of the downswing when using a clubhead width of 18" (like Yodas Luke's big club) then it will result in an looped downswing action - as described in a recent post.
You wrote-" "The backswing stage is of low energy and it does not matter much that you need to keep the sweetspot on plane during a backswing."
My understanding of the sweetspot being "on plane" during the backswing (between the first parallel and the top of the backswing) is that it must be on the same plane as the back of the flat left wrist/hand. Yodas Luke successfully achieved that goal during his backswing by rotating the sweespot from sweetplane 2 to the elbow plane during his backswing.
It is my understanding that the clubshaft should always remain on-plane when it is swinging through the impact zone (which I will loosely describe as being between the third parallel and fourth parallel) and I am under the impression that this rule applies equally to swingers versus hitters.
The orbit that the clubhead will transcribe during its passage through the impact zone will be circular, and the size of the circular orbit must be related to the angle of the inclined plane - being smaller for a shallower inclined plane (eg. elbow plane), and larger for a steeper inclined plane (turned shoulder plane). The hands will also move inside more quickly if the circular orbit is smaller - eg. Hogan's swing where his clubshaft is slightly below the elbow plane (closer to the hand plane) during its passage through the impact zone - and that it is not dependent on whether a golfer is a swinger or a hitter.
Do you agree, or disagree?
Jeff.
Jeff
Its just that sometimes I think it is debate not golf that is your real sport.
When in your first post above you asked "Do you agree, or disagree?" Im thinking you would have gladly debated either side of a persons answer.
This is all very educational for you and some of the readers, my self included, but only to a point. Like I said I like these threads.
But we are still dealing with your first sentence above!
As for censorship, I only appeal for brevity in light of the fact these debates have no proper structure or moderator. Even Kennedy Nixon went off the air at one point. Was that censorship too?
Debates do end, normally. Although Im sure some parties could go on and on if given the chance.
Lets do 1-L-16 next. Thats a good one. Seriously, no joke. Id like it. Was Jack wrong in regard to how to hit a fade? Face angle or club head path as the determining factor in initial ball flight.
Jeff - Ted's demonstration of horizontal hinge action is basically perfect.
Very few people ever stay on "the" plane as well as Ted, hitting or swinging.
Cognitive dissonance is in full effect for you. You are very stuck viewing the SHAFT as the plane. Per Homer the shaft is NOT THE PLANE. Even the text you quote, the shaft staying on "A" plane, you are not understanding. It isn't in reference to THE plane.
There is no 'loop or OTT' in Ted's demonstration.
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One small correction. I realise that Homer was talking about one PLANE with respect to the orbiting sweetspot and that's the sweetspot plane. However, I also talk of the clubshaft plane. You may not understand the relevance of talking about a "clubshaft plane" (which is dictated by the rotational movement of the back of the flat left wrist/hand), but I think that you have to understand the relationship between the clubshaft plane and the sweetspot plane to really understand what is happening in the golf swing. I guess that my 'belief' in an orbiting sweetspot's plane and also a clubshaft plane represents my state of cognitive dissonance!
One small correction. I realise that Homer was talking about one PLANE with respect to the orbiting sweetspot and that's the sweetspot plane. However, I also talk of the clubshaft plane. You may not understand the relevance of talking about a "clubshaft plane" (which is dictated by the rotational movement of the back of the flat left wrist/hand), but I think that you have to understand the relationship between the clubshaft plane and the sweetspot plane to really understand what is happening in the golf swing. I guess that my 'belief' in an orbiting sweetspot's plane and also a clubshaft plane represents my state of cognitive dissonance!
Jeff.
Homer defines "the" plane as the hands (pressure points) and sweetspot. Not shaft. You may not understand the relevance of the physics, in fact, you clearly don't (nor do you understand the bold section above).
I suggest you suspend your current perspective and re-read all of the posts in this thread, and chapter 2. I'm done trying to get through to you, as you've shown little sign of incubating new perspectives so far.
__________________
"Support the On Plane Swinging Force in Balance"
"we have no friends, we have no enemies, we have only teachers"
Simplicity buffs, see 5-0, 1-L, 2-0 A and B 10-2-B, 4-D, 6B-1D, 6-B-3-0-1, 6-C-1, 6-E-2
You regard photo 2 as misleading because you thought that the hosel and sweetspot should be on the higher plane. Why did you think that it should happen if the flat left wrist/hand stayed on the lower plane? If the hosel and sweetspot were on the higher plane, then that would represent an off-plane motion of the clubshaft. Yodas Luke was not shifting planes during his backswing, so why should his clubshaft hosel and sweetspot shift planes?
Jeff.
Jeff, and why not ? The clubhead and the hand are so relatively distal things from each other that it does not change practically anything in the hands relation to the clubhead. If we assume that the club rotates around an imaginary axis coming through its CoG (assuming it comes through sweetspot as well) it is natural to suspect that the sweetspot remains on the same inclined plane all the time forcing the shaft and the hosel change its original plane to a slightly higher one. It is very logical for me.
Here is photo of Tiger Woods and Adam Scott in mid-downswing.
Note that the back of their flat left wrist/hand is against the inclined plane. Note that their clubshaft hosel and clubface sweetspot is also along the same plane.
Now, you stated "why not" - which means that you can imagine that the cluface sweetspot can be on a different plane than the back of the left wrist/hand at this time point.
To me, that means that you really do not understand the relationship between left hand movements and the clubface. If the clubface was not on the same plane as the back of the left wrist/hand at this time point, then the left wrist/hand cannot be flat - it would have to be bent. In my mental universe, the left wrist/hand must always remain flat throughout the entire swing. If the left wrist/hand always remains flat and the clubface is always exactly in a straight line relationship with the back of the flat left wrist/hand, then the clubface must always rotate at the same rpm as the back of the flat left wrist/hand.
You wrote-: "Homer defines "the" plane as the hands (pressure points) and sweetspot. Not shaft. You may not understand the relevance of the physics, in fact, you clearly don't (nor do you understand the bold section above)."
I clearly do understand that point. The orbiting sweetspot travels on the imaginary sweetspot plane and it is directed by PP#3 acting through the sweetspot of the clubhead. A golfer doesn't have to ever think of the clubshaft in this scenario because the only important relationship is between PP#3 and the sweetspot. During the downswing, PP#3 aims/directs the sweetspot at the base of the sweetspot plane. The ball sits on the base of the sweetspot plane, so the sweetspot is precisely directed towards the ball at its ground location on the ball-target line (which is the base of the sweetspot's inclined plane).
However, I personally think that you need to better understand the relationship between the sweetspot plane and the clubshaft plane if you want to efficiently swing Yodas Luke's big club.
Its just that sometimes I think it is debate not golf that is your real sport.
When in your first post above you asked "Do you agree, or disagree?" Im thinking you would have gladly debated either side of a persons answer.
very true post. At times I wonder if Jeff would argue that night is day!
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